Friends of Versailles

Tags

art., artists, Chapelle royale, history, palace, Versailles

Friends groups exist everywhere and they are useful to raise funds and promote a site. Friends of Museums, Opera Houses, Theatres, Palaces, Gardens, etc. All have in common raising funds and promoting a place and attracting others to their project.

The Palace of Versailles was built between 1631 and 1715. Then after 1792 when it was closed by the Revolutionary government, it’s furniture and all its fixtures where sold off to foreign collectors. The Wallace Collection in London has an incredible array of furniture and objects from the Palace and it is all beautifully presented at Hertford House in Manchester Square, the former townhouse of the Seymour family, Marquesses of Hertford. It is named after Sir Richard Wallace, who built the extensive collection, along with the Marquesses of Hertford.

During the 19th century the Palace was remodelled to accommodate the French Senate and Legislative assembly. Great painting galleries were built from the former apartments of the Great Princes. Other buildings like Trianon and Le Hameau de la Reine were left to decay, this including the fountains and the extensive gardens and statuary.

When I first visited Versailles in 1969 with my parents, the palace looked a little sad and neglected. Yes, you could see the great rooms of the palace like la gallerie des glaces and the royal bedrooms, but they were empty of furniture, no candelabras or curtains on the windows. It was difficult to imagine how the King lived in such a place surrounded by a large number of Courtisans. The guided tours only gave the most perfunctory information mostly the major dates and details well known to all. My father remarked that the way the tour was given you had the impression that everything had been sent out for cleaning but would be back next week.

Les Amis du Chateau de Versailles is more than 100 year old association. In 1998 a group of wealthy Americans formed what is known as the American Friends of Versailles. Their goal was simple, raise funds to promote and support major restoration projects for the Palace and gardens and to support the French group of Les Amis, promoting friendship between France and the USA.

It goes without saying that any restoration work at Versailles requires experts in many fields, including archeologists, artists, historians and scholars plus artisan builders. The cost is always in the millions of Euros and the French Government and the European Union participate financially. Versailles is a UNESCO site.

The American Friends of Versailles being hosted at the Elysée Palace by Madame Macron, wife of the French President.

In the last few years restoration projects were done or are under way at Le Hameau de la Reine, which is this little farm built for Marie-Antoinette so she could play the Bergère and pretend she lived a simple life. The Royal Gate was rebuilt in front of the Chateau, it had been torn down at the Revolution, the roof top of the entire palace was re-gilded in gold leaf as it was in the 18th century. Major fountains in the park were totally restored. Now the Royal Chapel completed in 1715 is being restored and repaired, this multi-year project should be completed in the Spring of 2021. It is the first major restoration of the Chapel since its construction. The roof with its giant wood beams and slate roof had not been touched in 300 years.

These are only some of the numerous projects underway at Versailles. The last time I visited was 1989 for the sad anniversary of the so called French Revolution which now is called a Civil War by historians, at that time some furniture had returned and some restoration had been done.

In recent YouTube videos you can see the work being done on the Palace. It is nothing short of breathtaking. There is also an active program to recover some of the original furniture of the Palace, however the Wallace Collection in London is not parting with any of its royal furniture.

Restauration de la Chapelle Royale de Versailles.

Arm Chair Travel – Huế — Willy Or Won’t He

Tags

cuisine, Food, HUe, life, Travel, Vietnam

Dishes fit for a Emperor of Vietnam

Arm Chair Travel – Huế — Willy Or Won’t He

This was so much fun and Madame Ha, who is a national treasure in Vietnam was a great teacher. Her home and restaurant is in the compound of the Old Imperial City of Hue, Vietnam.Vietnam

Ex-Pat

Tags

abroad, Embassy, ex-pats, foreigners, life

When you live abroad for many years you will meet Ex-pats or Ex-Patriates, people who left their country of birth and made a new life for themselves in a foreign land. I have always found during my postings abroad the Ex-Pat crowd a very strange one. You are never quite sure what their story is, why are they in this foreign locale. Who are they really and why they do not want to go home or can’t.

Some were born abroad from parents who were colonial officials, grew up in the country and never moved to their country of citizenship, despite having family there. Others came by chance or for work and simply stayed. These Ex-Pats are not Snowbirds who visit for 6 months or less but long term residents some life long residents.

They often blend into the local community and you discover their stories by accident. There was in Jordan one fellow who lived in the ruins of an old movie set within the archeological park of Jerash, one of the city of the Decapolis. Eccentric fellow for sure, he would often help archeologists on site with small manual work. He kept to himself and was friendly.

Another was a woman of German origin who worked on the ancient site of the Oracle of Siwa Oasis in Egypt deep in the Sahara desert near the border with Lybia. She did archeological work and had established herself there and became famous for her books and studies on the site over a period of 50 years. Siwa is very isolated place, far away from any large town, she was a big fish in a small pond.

Many countries ask no questions, as long as you have your papers in order and live quietly on your own money without seeking public assistance, authorities really do not care and will not bother with you. Most had quiet lives but some where fleeing troubles back home.

In the movie set in India, The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel shows a group of British Ex-Pats living as if the Sun has not set on the British Empire. This movie is a comedy and did not reflect real life. Many Ex-Pats either live on good incomes or on a few dollars often counting on old friends and locals to help them along while doing odd jobs.

However not all of them spoke the local lingo and lived somewhat isolated lives because of it. If you are going to live anywhere for a long time, learn the language, it is most helpful and appreciated by the locals.

Some ex-pats looked to the Embassy as a lifeline to back home however many having been away for so many years, they were often out of touch with back home and remembered how things were when they left 10 or more years ago. One day a gentleman asked me how was Prime Minister Pierre E. Trudeau doing, I told him he had left office some 12 years previously and was now quietly retired.

In Rome we had Ex-Pats who had retired from the UN agencies, Rome has several large UN agencies headquartered in the Eternal city and due to generous agreements from the Italian Government, these ex-UN employees were able to continue living in Italy under special arrangements with many benefits. Some had cleverly bought homes many decades prior when prices were still low if compared to today and continue to live in a grand style.

The most interesting Ex-Pats were those who lived in countries where you would think there was little to attract, per example Communist China. It was, I discovered fairly easy for a foreign national to live in China for a long period of time and even work. In the years prior to the Beijing Olympics, before 2008, many Canadians would come to study in China or teach. Others would come as tourists and then convert their visa into a residence visa. Some still would start a business or find work in the tourism industry. The Chinese seem to believe that tourists would prefer to speak or interact with one of their own, you often saw this in Tourist Hotels where the staff of the Front desk would be a caucasian, either Canadian or American.

Probably one of the most famous Ex-Pat group where men and women who came from the USA in the 1930’s to join Mao and his band of merry communists. Several where Jewish lawyers from NYC who wanted to change the world and were used by people like Mao, in the phrase of Lenin as useful idiots, many had senior positions within the Communist party, some did very well for themselves, writing books and speaking of their experience in China. They were in a way a propaganda tool used against the USA. The last one Sidney Rittenberg died in 2019.

Chinese Television CCTV also had tourism promotional weekly shows catering to English speaking business people or their families featuring topics like shopping or visiting sight in China or where to eat or drink. One show in particular had this good looking African American muscle type who would ride in a brand new sport vehicle with his Chinese girlfriend all around China as if he was travelling around the USA on route 66. I never found it terribly realistic since it was well known that it is impossible to drive more than 50Km outside Beijing in a private car. The police will stop you at a road block and forcibly return you with a stiff fine to the City. Of course you could book a guide (minder) and a car to escort you where ever you wanted to go.

In general Ex-Pats who married a Chinese Citizen could start a business and live the rest of their lives in China. There was a bar in the park next to the Gong Ti or Workers Sport Stadium in the Chao Yang district owned by a Brit who had been in Beijing for at least 20 years. Chao Yang is a neighbourhood on the East side of Beijing of 2 million people, mostly composed of foreigners and Embassies. This fellow catered to Ex-Pats exclusively and offered British food and beer. He had arrived in the early 1990’s when China was opening to the World and had set himself up. Such Ex-Pats become institutions in the foreign community. In Beijing we also had French, Spanish and Italian Ex-Pats who owned restaurants, bars, language schools or work in Foreign Embassies. Many managed to survive and go on for years. Many catered to the foreign community and tourists, they are like a safe haven.

Women Ex-Pats were also very interesting, we had one on Mexico who married a Mexican and opened a Canadian restaurant outside Mexico City, in her case we heard all about her problems, it became a bit of a cause célèbre. Others like in Italy would marry locally and try to integrate, I say try, because it was very difficult to find acceptance from the family, your In-Laws. People always viewed you as an outsider. I met such women in Jordan and Egypt, Greece and China. Some succeeded in carving a life for themselves, others simply left or divorced after a few years.

The world of the Ex-Pat is a twilight zone, neither in nor out, despite often years of residence. Some do very well and become local fixtures and have happy lives and many good friends, but that is not the case for all. Maybe this is why we chose to return to Canada after my last posting despite having investigated the very real possibility of living in Ireland or somewhere in the European Union, like Italy, Spain or Portugal.

Music and photo

Tags

Asia, life, luxury, Pink Martini, Travel, Vietnam

Pink Martini sings Joli Garçon.

This photo goes with this song by Pink Martini, taken by Will in 2007 in our hotel in Da Nang, Vietnam during our grand private tour of the country. We took this private tour which was wonderful to celebrate Will’s Birthday, a 2 week trip from North to South. Vietnam is a beautiful country, we visited many cities and did a culinary course in Vietnamese cuisine, it was great fun, a memorable visit. We visited Sa Pa in the Hoàng Liên Son Mountains of northwestern Vietnam, Hanoi the Capital, Hai Phong, Vinh, Hue the old Imperial Capital, Hoi An, Da Nang, Saigon and sailed on the Mekong River.

Silk bathrobes in our beautiful hotel. All hotels were luxurious a level not seen in North America, with great service.

Homage à Juliette Gréco

Tags

art., culture, France, Greco, Paris, Sartre, Songs

A few days ago Juliette Gréco (1927-2020) described as the Muse of St-Germain-des-Prés and a figure of the après-guerre and the Existantialism Mouvement died in Ramatuelle in the Var region of France, age 93.

It was Jean-Paul Sartre, writer philosopher, screenwriter, political activist, biographer, and literary critic (1905-1980) who encouraged her to go into a singing career. His books on the topic fascinated a whole generation and was a way of looking at the world after the Second World War. I remember in school in Montreal we heard a lot about Sartre and our teachers would often quote him. My mother read his books and those of Simone de Beauvoir. It was the thing then and it all seems so long ago now. Though I think that revisiting Existentialism today while this pandemic is here might be helpful.

Existentialism is a form of philosophical enquiry that explores the nature of existence by emphasizing experience of the human subject—not merely the thinking subject, but the acting, feeling, living human individual.

Juliette Gréco is just one of those artists whose fame makes them immortal. She sang songs with lyrics written by French poets such as Jacques Prévert and Boris Vian and singers like Jacques Brel and Serge Gainsbourg. All the greats of the XXth century French culture. She had a very long career and she left her mark.

I chose this song Il n’y a plus d’après which I think represents that era. St-Germain-des-Prés of course refers to the Paris neighbourhood where political activism was concentrated amongst the students and was the spot to be for anyone who sought to be involved in politics, mostly left wing, socialist, communist. In the song she refers to her lover who has moved to the other end of Paris away from St-Germain-des-Prés, meaning away from life from real existence, from what matters.

Teddy Bears

Tags

life, pumpkin, vacation, New Brunswick, Fredericton, Weather, CBC PEI, Teddy

Well according to our local weather guy, who by the way is always wrong about the weather, we were promised a Tsunami-Hurricane Weather bomb with this Teddy thing, what was it again? Oh yes some rain and a little wind. Not impressed with CBC PEI weather Jay Scotland.

Tomorrow I give a short talk on Canada’s role in the Middle East and specifically on Palestine and Israel. I did spend 8 years in the region and worked on those issues so … I will give them an historical perspective starting with Moses and the Promise Land to today, sort of a world wind tour of the situation and how Canada is saving the day.

I like a lot of people have been suffering from anxiety and sleeping poorly, this Covid thingy is not helping at all, I have suffered from anxiety all my life but I just find now that with age it is getting worse. My doctor is going to recommend some medication to help alleviate the symtoms.

I am going on a diet because this idleness is not helping my waist line and Mr Will is a very good cook and he has been baking and cooking days on end. I will have to bring out my Italian diet that I followed successfully in Rome. Not difficult to follow simply requires some discipline on portions and some exercise, no I do not have to join a gym.

I wonder did I buy to many pumpkins for this year’s Oktoberfest? I was just going to buy one or two for the porch, I may have gotten over zealous in my shopping.

Back from the mainland

We travelled to Fredericton NB for a 5 day vacation. The Capital of New Brunswick is beautiful and has a lot of history related to the struggles and wars between France and England, including the War of Independence of 1776-1783, Benedict Arnold, John André and Jonathan Odell. Fredericton being close (75 miles) to the border with Maine was a British garrison town on the St-John river, it had a strategic position.

It has opulent architecture, a lot of American Federal with French Second Empire style, some Italianate, the houses are beautiful and many have kept their coach house in the back garden on large lots, very Patrician looking. The Anglican Cathedral is a copy of Norfolk UK. Fredericton was a city of some wealth brought by the fact that the Imperial troops where stationed there until 1869 when Britain at this point withdrew all troops from Canada. The downtown near City Hall and the Legislature had some 50 stone garrison buildings. Officers mess with a bowling green. The tower of the Legislature appears to be a copy of the tower of the Charlottenburg Palace in Berlin. Unlike Charlottetown, all civic buildings are made of stone. The association with the army continues with Gagetown Canadian Armed Forces base with its airport outside Fredericton.

The Saint John River crosses the city, wide and impressive, one of the historical rivers of Canada, it flows all the way to St-John NB formerly known as ParrTown on the Bay of Fundy. Several railway bridges crossed the river but they like the railway have been dismantled and one is used as a pedestrian foot bridge connecting the North and South Side of Fredericton.

Beaverbrook Art Gallery under renovations until 2022 a new pavillion is to be built in front of the main entrance. The new entrance is on the far right of the photo.

You cannot visit Fredericton and not notice the name Beaverbrook. Max Aitken Lord Beaverbrook 1879-1964 was a local boy who made good in spades and he donated hundreds millions to Universities, created the Beaverbrook Art Gallery which houses his collection of Dali, Picasso also Dutch, French, Italian and English painters. He also built a Symphony Hall which stands next to the Provincial Legislature. Until 1969 Canadian Citizens where British Subjects and so Beaverbrook went to England and became the owner of a chain of Newspapers and was the Magnate of Fleet Street, he was also a personal friend of Sir Winston Churchill and served in his Cabinet occupying several key Ministerial Portfolios from 1939-1944. To Canadians, Beaverbrook financed the War Artists Program during the First World War 1914-1918 and commissioned over 1000 paintings of what is known today as Canadian War Art and of the contribution of Canadians to this conflict. Many of the painters later became famous, some joined the celebrated Group of 7 who marked the Canadian art world from 1919 to 1934. The War Paintings are now located in the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa. His second wife Marcia Anastasia Christoforides Aitken, Dowager Lady Beaverbrook 1910-1994 was a philanthropist, an art collector, and racehorse owner after Beaverbrook’s death she continued his work and to this day two important Charitable Foundations in the UK and in Canada continue. She had previously been married to Sir James H. Dunn, saviour of Algoma Steel in 1935. She died in 1994 and many people remember her well in Canada.

The tower lantern of the Legislature in the Italianate style 1880. It does resemble the lantern of the Charlottenburg Palace in Berlin.

On the restaurant scene, Fredericton offers a different and more varied food scene, we went to several good restaurants. One that stands out was The Schnitzel Parlour & Fackelmann’s Chocolate on Union Street. Serving authentic German Cuisine. They received twice thanks from HM the Queen for their chocolates. Queen Elizabeth is known for her love of handmade chocolates. The fare is Schnitzel and German sausages served with great flair, you absolutely need reservations to dine there and I know people who have waited weeks to be able to secure a reservation.

I also bought an aquarelle at the Gallery 78, on Queen Street. It is housed in the Mansion of Dr Crockett. Many of the artists are well known and some of the art is Museum quality. This is a gallery for art connaisseurs, great service and knowledgeable gallery staff. The piece I bought is entitled Apple Tree by Cathy Ross. I just loved it on first sight great attention to details.

Cathy Ross was born in Saint John, New Brunswick Canada. She studied at Mount Allison University and the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, graduating with a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree. In 1983 she was awarded a scholarship to study at the Banff School of fine Arts. In both 1981 and 1983 Cathy was the recipient of Elizabeth T. Greenshields Foundation grants.

In her professional career she has exhibited in many solo and group exhibitions in Canada and the US. Her work is represented in collections across Canada, including: Memorial University, NFLD; New Brunswick Museum, Saint John NB; The Canada Council Art Bank, Ottawa; Banff Centre, Alberta; Dofasco Inc., Hamilton; and the Burnaby Art Centre, Burnaby BC.

We also visited 2 large fruit, vegetable and meat markets one called the Green Pig near Moncton and the other Moxon’s on the St-John River leaving Fredericton. All in all it was a great 5 days and I just loved Fredericton as a city.

Statue of Max Aitken Lord Beaverbrook next to his Art Gallery, wearing the academic robes as Dean of the University of New Brunswick.

Here are some pictures of the city:

Built in 1800 for Loyalist Col. Allen. It is a private house and has kept all its heritage charm inside like outside.

The anglican Cathedral of Fredericton.

Some early Fall colours

The old Railway bridge now adapted for pedestrians to cross over to the North side of town. Fredericton is a walk easy town.

We will have to go back, it is only 4 hours away from Charlottetown and an easy drive.

Fredericton

Tags

Beaverbrook, Food, Fredericton, New Brunswick, PEI

This week we are travelling to Fredericton, the Capital of the Province of New Brunswick. It is about 4 hours away from Charlottetown, PEI. The Maritimes has a strong connection to Germany with nameplace and New England with the arrival of thousands of Loyalists who fled the civil war and revolution in 1776. Fredericton has a population of 60,000 people, it is the seat of the Legislature and of the Lieutenant Governor. It started as a garrison town, first under the French regime and then under the British.p

Fredericton is name for:

Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany KG GCB GCH (Frederick Augustus; 16 August 1763 – 5 January 1827) was the second son of George III , King of the United Kingdom, Ireland and Hanover, and his consort Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. A soldier by profession, from 1764 to 1803 he was Prince-Bishop of Osnabruck (near Munster) in the Holy Roman Empire. From the death of his father in 1820 until his own death in 1827 he was the Heir Presumptive to his elder brother, George IV, in both the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the Kingdom of Hanover.

Frederick was thrust into the British Army at a very early age and was appointed to high command at the age of thirty. As Commander-in-Chief during the Napoleonic Wars, he oversaw the re-organisation of the British Army, establishing vital structural, administrative and recruiting reforms.

At one time prior to 1784, Nova Scotia comprised PEI and New Brunswick. It was one large British colony in Atlantic Canada. The territory was carved up later for administrative reasons. New Brunswick became a colony in 1784 and later a Province of Canada in 1867.

The name of the Province New Brunswick was given in 1784 to the territory in honour of King George III who was also Duke of Brunswick and Luneburg in Lower Saxony in Germany. The population of the Province is 780,000.

New Brunswick is often thought of as a place you drive through on your way to somewhere else. It borders Maine, Nova Scotia, Quebec and PEI. The original inhabitants where the Mi’k Maq and as of 1604 the French settlers arrived known as Acadians. Today New Brunswick is the only Official Bilingual (French-English) Province in Canada. The Acadians represent one third of the population. Two families dominate and control the economy, the Irvings and the McCains. The first time I drove through the province in 2016, I was coming from Ottawa, following the highway I arrived at Edmundston and started seeing on the highway signs warning of Moose crossing and giving a phone number to call if you saw any Moose on the highway. High fences were also placed on the side of the road to keep the Moose off the road. It is always better to drive in N.B. in daytime and avoid driving around sunset and at night, a crash with a moose is usually deadly.

Fredericton is known for many things, but one is the Beaverbrook Art Gallery, created by Max Aitken Lord Beaverbrook, a businessman from New Brunswick who became a close confident of Winston Churchill and owner of a chain of British newspapers. He was very influential in Britain and Canada and because of his humble origins and his willy ways was detested by some Courtiers at Buckingham Palace and some in the Government establishment. In Canada Beaverbrook is sort of a legend and so is his wife who outlived him and was every inch the Upper class doyenne. There are lots of stories about her and how people knew how demanding she could be, but Lady Beaverbrook was tenacious.

New Brunswick is also known for its good restaurants and markets, scenic spots and beautiful national parks and the famous tides of the Bay of Fundy.

So a few days in Fredericton and surrounding area to see something new.

Photos on a sunny Sunday

Tags

Berlin, Brandenburg, Germany, Kaiser, palace, Prussia

Here is a nice photo of the Imperial Palace in Berlin now free of scaffoldings and seen from the Western side of the Spree River in Central Berlin.

Here is a second photo taken from the Palace Bridge, landscaping work and completion of a new metro station continues. Opening date October 2021.

Yesterday and Today

Tags

Cardigan, dental, dogs, Greenwich, life, Mik Maq, Parks, PEI, Seafood, Vet

Well yesterday we were at Greenwich National Park on the Atlantic side (North side) of the Island at Havre Saint Pierre known to the english as St-Peter’s Bay. A spectacular park, rich in fauna and very quiet where the only noise is the birds and small animals in the forest and the surf just beyond the giant sand dunes.

Greenwich was established as a National Park on PEI, one of many, in 1970 with the purchase of the Sanderson Family Farm. The Sandersons sold their land as the sand dunes were moving and encroaching unto their farm land, it was unstoppable and this also created other changes to the farm land they owned.

In this picture you can clearly see the land mass surrounded by sea water, the dunes forming a high barrier with a beach and the interior is more sand with Marran grass and fresh water pond, spruce and birch forests on sandy soil. Lots of wild flowers and small mammals, like red squirrels, voles, meadow mice, minks, foxes, Northern Harriers, Eagles, snowshoe Hare, Sparrows, warblers, American red start, short tailed weasels. Many beautiful flowers growing in large numbers everywhere.

The most fascinating part is the floating walkway across the Bowley Pond. This year the water level was low due to the very dry summer we had, only 30 cm of water when you can easily have upwards of 1 meter.

Finally after a 4 km walk you arrive at the foot of the sand dunes and a built wooden staircase take you up and over to the beach. It is strictly forbidden to walk on the dunes. Vast swath of Lichen and Marram grass stabilizes the dunes.

This photo is taken from the top of the dunes looking down to the beach and the sea.

Clean and quiet, so pleasant.

Going back to the park area this is the view of the serpentine floating dock.

To think that this beautiful park and beach is just 35 minutes from our home in Charlottetown.

We also met during our visit a Mik Maq elder, his people have inhabited the area for 10,000 years. He was very interesting to talk to. His name Junior Peter-Paul. The Mik Maq live all over the Maritime Provinces and were closely allied and inter-married with the French Acadians until 1755 when the deportation (ethnic cleansing) took place.

He and Michael Sark a fellow Mik Maq had built using traditional knowledge a Birch Bark Wigwam and explained how it was done and all the symbolism that goes into such a construction. The 7 internal rings to give it rigidity are made of birch, cherry, maple saplings and symbolize the 7 sacred teachings on Respect, Courage, Humility, Love, Truth, Wisdom and Honesty. Spruce roots are use to tie it all together. The birch bark is cut in a specific manner and dried also following a specific custom. Upon inspection it looked like leather skins. The door always faces East for the rising Sun. I had never thought much about it and so it was interesting to hear about the techniques used from an Elder who had the knowledge.

Here in Charlottetown a new Mik Maq cultural centre is opening a stone throw from our house, an impressive building on the water’s edge.

After our walk we decided to go to Cardigan a small settlement in the vicinity of Georgetown and Montague. The restaurant Clam Diggers offers a very good menu of fish and fresh seafood. The portions are good and the seafood come directly from the wharf off the boats. Can’t ask for better really. The good thing is that Clam Diggers will remain open this Winter. As their name indicates Clams the big ones are featured on several dishes.

Today was another adventure, our Nicky went to the Dentist for his annual teeth cleaning. The appointment was at 8 o’clock, he had no breakfast and no water since the night before. We went out for our walk and then directly to the car. He gave me a funny look like, What? Where is my breakfast? When we got to the Vet he was not happy and could sense it was not a good thing, other dogs looked nervous and Nicky gave me the look, don’t leave me here. It all went well and I picked him up at 2:30pm. Next week it’s Nora’s turn. Our Vet is very good and has a nice gentle touch with them.